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Post by Zippy on Jan 15, 2004 1:12:44 GMT
Beethoven & Others vs. Big Brovaz 'n' OvazAlthough not sharing a popular belief among our generation and society, this article documents James' views on classical music and its modern day adversary: pop. This column addresses the true beauty and finer points of the older of the two, presenting a solid argument for James' own opinions on music today. Having said this though, would you go as far as James by saying that modern music is "godawful", and that classical music is the true form of all that is good in the industry?
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sparky
Spice Girl
GARLIC BREAD?
Posts: 19
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Post by sparky on Jan 15, 2004 16:46:45 GMT
even though i respect classical music and i think it is amazin how it all goes together and all that and some of it sounds class...but sorry to say i could not listen to it for 2 hours. i think young james to put it nice'ly has head stuck up his arse when it comes to todays music...there are many musical genuises and if you dont think so i would take this arguement up with u in person. there a people like annie lennox, david gray,noel gallagher and paul weller who just blow u away with their live acoustic sets and going a bit further back bob dylan, jimi hendrix,eric clapton and carlos sentana...u must respect what these people can make a guitar do!
p.s please dont shoot me down because my english is sh*te!
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Post by beSottied on Jan 15, 2004 22:04:01 GMT
Although I think our generation should be more aware of classical music, people can't be forced to like it. I like a mix or everything really, rather than any specific band/group/other. I suppose, if artists make music and people are buying it, there's nothing we can do - everyone is entitle to their own opinion. I can't claim to know anything about classical music but I do like to have classic fm on when I can't get to sleep - it tends to be much more relaxing than other stations and, of course, there's none of that Frank's Factory Flooring business.
Some modern artists are decidedly crap (One True Voice - where did they go?!) but others, like David Gray, the Darkness, No Doubt (not that i'm a fan or anything) the Goo Goo Dolls, occasionally Matchbox 20, and the Cure bring us original music that doesn't have you grasping for the "mute" button.
Really, the only problem I have with the article is the comments made on the length of today's music - i'm sure the Black Eyed Peas couldn't write an hour long song, but then, could anyone bear to listen to it if they did?
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Post by Jakk on Jan 15, 2004 22:47:15 GMT
The authors nonchalant dismissal of Techno immediatley shows he has no knowledge of 'dance' music beyond the realm of "Galaxy Radio - home of RnB (a real plague on the musical world) and (turd) dance!"
Admittedly "dance" may not be as tranquil on a whole as classical, especially when looking at the "hardcore" ends of the spectrum, however it is, IMO, the one form of modern music that has the closest link to classical music. It is possibly the only modern music form that has anythign near the level of composition found in classical music, afterall dance is just that, a composite of numerous sound samples and let me tell you its a bloody hard thing to pull off (you try juggling several decks, queuing all of your sounds up and mixing them all seamlessly and on queue whilst having to deal with a plethora of high tech wizardry around you - i wouldnt like to, put it that way), DJ's are driving around in Ferrari F50's and bopping Page 3 girls for a reason i'll tell you that.
You will also find individual techno artists who quite literally are the classical musicians of the modern day, they have the same flow and beauty to their music as found in many classical pieces, indeed i highly reccomend you check out Hybrid's "Wide Angle" if you think Techno/Dance is nothing more but big beats, super-clubs and glow sticks or for a more famous example the Kurayamino Mix of Rob Dougan's "Clubbed To Death" (as hear din the Caffreys advert and The Matrix).
None of this is to say i dont appreciate classical music, while its not something i listen to regulalrly i will admit that Holst's the planet is one of the most impressive things to ever cross my ear drums, but it is hard to take an attack on more or less all genres that arent 'Classical' when the authors only knowlegde (judging by what ive read anyhows) of the genre's he is laying into extends no furthur than what he's heard on the local Drive Time radio show.
...that said i despise "RnB" (its not even RnB - Led Zep, The Free...now thats RnB), hip-hop and Jungle/Garage, but again i have no real knowledge of these genres beyond the mass produced radio friendly samples i regularly hear, indeed, scratch beneath the popular front of Hip-Hop and you'll find such excellent artists as DJ shadow (the master of soundtracks to urban living) --Jakk
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Post by Eat Your Uncle on Jan 15, 2004 23:44:17 GMT
It's gonna be a long one, folks. I wouldn't read it. Throughout this article, I was amazed that someone so intent on attacking those who listen to a type of music that the writer doesn't appreciate seems so unwilling to appreciate that not everything written and recorded in the last century is as generic and formless as the writer - and, to a certain extent, myself - believes that pop music of recent times is. I acknowledge that my taste in music is a subjective opinion and that alone - I see no evidence that the writer can conceive of the same idea. Really? Does it not seem possible, perhaps, that your range is limited to merely what has survived in some form or other to be reproduced today - "popular classical music", if such juxtaposition doesn't cause your monacle to fall out? Does it honestly seem feasible that such a genre can exist that everyone who composes within it is automatically blessed with genius? Here, you say more in a half-paragraph than the entire article aims to tell us - you are a musically-prescriptive hermit crab. If you honestly believe that all modern day music is written, presumably in crayon, by those who "suffer from serious, possibly even contagious retardation" and that classical music, by definition, is mana from the Gods, born of genius and, without question of individual merit, excellent, you have failed to understand that compositions of great beauty and individuality can exist, even in the world of "pop" (although, more likely, not) and, one can only assume, failed to try to seek out anything written in the last century. Even if it were suggested to you that the claim could be made, I doubt highly based on this article that you would be willing to listen. Rather than go to great length to present numerous examples of music from many different areas of modern music with long song lengths that still remain interesting to listen to, I instead propose this question to you: do you base the enjoyment of a meal on how long it takes to eat it? A three or four minute long song can be just as enjoyable as a far-longer sonata or concerto. Long length of music often proves, in my opinion, to soon degenerate into unnecessary repetition and self-indulgent variation - take it from the perspective of a violinist and pianist, it is musically tiresome to play twelve variations of a piece in which far fewer - if any - would be more satisfying to both play and listen to. Once again, you fail to differentiate between choice and capability - You will rarely find a record label willing to let their artists release many tracks longer than 10-minutes, nor artists willing to record them simply for the sake of length. Furthermore, I don't suggest that you try to define a "true artist". You will fail (especially if you consider the number of repeat bar lines proportional to amount of artistic merit). Does it feel good to believe that your music can beat up their music? I hope so. I won't attack your IQ - it's a ridiculously poor attack to make upon anyone - but I will say that I know people clearly less intelligent than yourself who are willing to try new things, and I have far more respect for them than I do for you. Try diversity - see if it fits your size 11 feet. EDIT: Corrected "sonato" - I suck at the spellchecking, y'all
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Post by Zippy on Jan 16, 2004 0:02:19 GMT
Omg, that's like the coolest flame ever. The one liner before the final quote made me giggle ;D I think, James, that you have a back to cover here! Ahhhhh, if only the other threads were so heated
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Post by DrSmartEsq on Jan 16, 2004 0:15:06 GMT
I don't back for cover because i am invincible. i was expecting some negative feedback due to the topic and content of the article, I do appreciate other genres of music when what is turned out is by them and shows talent. I do step outside my box and experiment with other types of music, if i dont like it i dont listen to it but i find valid reasons for my dislike not just "its old" "its not loud enough" and "nothing happens". Primarily my argument is against artists who don't write their own work and can hardly perform them without the aid of electronic enhancement, and i understand that record labels don't like long songs. But this is due to the lack of a concentration span of the people who listen. I did say i take my hat off to true artists, those who do make their OWN music and show talent. i despise most of all modern musicians and their need to reach the top of the charts by covering a previously tollerable and successful song and ruining it. my final comment is I hate Chris DeBurgh, that annoying hairy eyebrowed freak.
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Post by Zippy on Jan 16, 2004 0:28:14 GMT
"Beautiful ladies in danger, Danger all round the wor-or-orld, I will protect them, Because I am Chris De Burgh. Beautiful ladies, In emergency situations. Beautiful ladies are lovely, But sometimes they don't take care They're too busy with their make up Or combing their lovely hair To take basic safety precautions. But I will protect them! I will saaaave the pretty ones, With their smiles, and their sparkling eyes, But let the ugly ones DIE. I have no place for them, in my New World Order... I won't waste my seeeed on hideous trolls! Kill kill kill kill kill the trolls Hunt them down, there shall be no clemency Kill kill kill kill kill the trolls Look under the bridges, that's where they hide It's where they hide And beauty... shall... be... my... pride!"
Good ol' Bill Bailey!
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Post by Eat Your Uncle on Jan 16, 2004 0:33:44 GMT
Primarily my argument is against artists who don't write their own work and can hardly perform them without the aid of electronic enhancement, Yeah, I thought so. That wasn't made quite so clear in the article, though, otherwise I probably wouldn't have replied at all! I disagree, there - if music is a test of patience to people that can sit through long movies, the reason is very unlikely to be due to them. Not everyone who cannot bear a piece of music over ten minutes long is an ADD sufferer. I myself find that the best and most atmospheric music of the classical genre can be split into its constituent parts quite easily, often indicating the the composer is aware of the need for variation and the tolerance of his audiences - both then and now. Thus, I feel it would be better to compare longer pieces of classical music to albums - or, at the very least, "concept albums" such as Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon, which contains many of the repetitions of structures and melodies reminiscent of longer classical pieces. ...fair enough!
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Post by DrSmartEsq on Jan 16, 2004 0:47:40 GMT
In reference to mattys transcript of the bill bailey sketch in which he sings the chris deburgh song he also comments that it has to have a slow beat because any faster and his eyebrows catch fire. And how can such a pug-fugly man spawn a Miss World? i know beauty skips a generation but thats just daft. she must have been adopted and not told
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Post by DrSmartEsq on Jan 16, 2004 16:55:35 GMT
Don't you find it slightly funny that popular music has been slating classical music for years and classical music has got on with ignoring it but the moment it does fight back, popular music immedately gets offended and needs to strike back almost a "How dare you insult us back!"
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Post by Geg on Jan 16, 2004 17:17:01 GMT
Populist music's been insulting everyone for decades.
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Post by DrSmartEsq on Jan 16, 2004 17:39:35 GMT
it appears to be able to dish it insults but not take them
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Post by Zippy on Jan 16, 2004 18:39:59 GMT
Also, you tend to find classical artists finishing composing when they're dead as opposed to after shagging their bandmate's ex, or, indeed, their bandmate, for example
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Post by Jakk on Jan 16, 2004 19:01:56 GMT
..youve heard about what went on in 'The Tellitubbies" tour bus too then i take it...
--Jakk
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Post by Geg on Jan 16, 2004 19:17:12 GMT
Wow! the Teletubbies did a tour? how did i miss it?!
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Post by Zippy on Jan 16, 2004 19:21:44 GMT
It's all in a day's work for a Tellytubby like you, you didn't notice it, did you, Tinky Winky, eh, EH?!
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Post by Tassadara C on Jan 16, 2004 19:22:27 GMT
The other thing about a lot of classical music is that it's often intended (and put to best use) as background music; quartet music is boring as hell to listen to (and play) when you're on stage and all that's happening. For big symphonies and stuff, when people went to see the new pieces in concert, watching the orchestra added interest, in addition to the whole social aspect, which was really most of the point of going. It's really a rare composer who could make music that was interesting, dramatic and powerful -- think about it; there were hundreds of composers, but only a few big names from so many centuries are still valued today.
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Post by Jakk on Jan 16, 2004 19:29:26 GMT
Wow! the Teletubbies did a tour? how did i miss it?! It didnt last for very long, tinky winky was fired by the record label for being a tranny, dippsywhippsy was caught doing lines of coke in the tour bus toilet by a member of the press, and la-la stuck his TV ariel thing in Po and get her up the duff... ...makes Bob's the builders orgies with teenage groupies sound like good clean fun doesnt it? --Jakk
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Post by Tassadara C on Jan 16, 2004 19:44:00 GMT
It didnt last for very long, tinky winky was fired by the record label for being a tranny, dippsywhippsy was caught doing lines of coke in the tour bus toilet by a member of the press, and la-la stuck his TV ariel thing in Po and get her up the duff... ...makes Bob's the builders orgies with teenage groupies sound like good clean fun doesnt it? --Jakk I get the feeling that you would be the kind of person to very much enjoy Veggietales. The characters are talking vegetables, the two main ones being Bob the Tomato and Jimmy the Cucumber. King George was just a little too fond of that ducky.
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Post by Zippy on Jan 16, 2004 19:51:42 GMT
I know someone who's obsessed with a ducky. But that's besides the point And La-La's a girl, apparently - a twisted lesbian relationship gone mad Jimmy the Cucumber sounds fun, educational and wholesome. To be fair.
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Post by Tassadara C on Jan 16, 2004 19:56:32 GMT
I know someone who's obsessed with a ducky. But that's besides the point Not my fault he's so damn cute that's the best kind!
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Post by Zippy on Jan 16, 2004 20:00:06 GMT
...
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Post by Tassadara C on Jan 16, 2004 20:12:29 GMT
... lol Victory! \o/
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Post by Jakk on Jan 16, 2004 20:17:30 GMT
And La-La's a girl, apparently - a twisted lesbian relationship gone mad The fact you know that utomatically relegated you to the ranks of 'those who deserve not the gift of life Jimmy the Cucumber sounds fun, educational and wholesome. To be fair. Thats exactly what your mother thought too... *i rock* --Jakk:t
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Post by Zippy on Jan 16, 2004 20:24:10 GMT
Not as much as your mum's bed did when I was in it with her last night!
\m/
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Post by Jakk on Jan 16, 2004 20:33:13 GMT
...if i didnt liek you i could make a very cutting comeback from that
--Jakk
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Post by beSottied on Jan 16, 2004 20:34:16 GMT
aharharhar - game to matthew i think
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Post by Zippy on Jan 16, 2004 20:47:46 GMT
Yes, 'twas me in that article on Halo and "your mam" debates, I've heard them all A-thank you.
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Post by GunstarHero on Jan 17, 2004 1:32:09 GMT
well man playing halo let u win an argument, my article is right games are not sad
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